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Singapore HiFi Audio Equipment discussion forum => HiFi Audio Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: watchdog on September 11, 2016, 04:14:12 PM

Title: The power conditioning thread
Post by: watchdog on September 11, 2016, 04:14:12 PM
Starting a thread to share and talk about power conditioning. I've set out a bit of what I've tried and the results.

1. Outlets with built in surge suppression and filtering

These range from the cheap and cheerful computer variety type of outlets (like Belkin, APC etc), to the dedicated audio brands like Tacima or China brands like Bada, Longyu and Weiduka. Although the parts count varied, you would expect to find a MOV for surge suppression, a couple of capacitors and a choke(s) for filtering.

I personally didn't have much long term success with these from a sonic point of view. For models that use universal outlets (you know, the type that can accept both a UK or US type plug), I always had a problem with intermittent contact.

2. Parallel filters

The really popular products of the past were the Audioprism Quietline and the PS Audio Noise Harvester. The main advantage of these products is that they were connected in parallel to the mains, and did not limit current. Many products in category 1 incorporate parallel filters. These operate at radio frequencies and above. As they are quite small, you can use a few, close to the source of interference where they are most effective.

I actually find these quite useful. I made my own, and the parts used have a profound outcome on sonics. Sadly, the best sounding capacitors are not rated for continuous mains use. That being said, you could get decent results using properly rated parts.

3. Regenerators

Made popular by brands like PS Audio and Pure Power. You have the rectified DC, and an inverter to regenerate the 50 Hz (in Singapore) sine wave. The Pure Power threw in a rechargeable battery.

I personally use the CSE RG-100. Regenerators tend to be big, heavy and not particularly efficient. My CSE runs at 50 % efficiency and generates a bit of heat too. They can sound really good, but I dislike the fact that you can't leave your equipment permanently switched on (at least without a shocking electricity bill and shortened regenerator lifespan)

4. Isolation transformers

Like balanced transformers, the type of transformer used has a big effect on the sound. Concept is quite simple. Have your mains line magnetically coupled via a 1:1 transformer. The 50 Hz AC gets across, while all the rest of the nasties don't (at least in theory). Your are limited in current based on transformer size. Transformers large enough to power a large hifi system are big, heavy and bulky. If you are really unlucky, you may even end up with a physical buzz on your transformer.

5. Balanced transformers

The concept of balanced power is interesting. Split the incoming mains into two legs, e.g. 230 V gets converted into 115V+ and 115V-

Have a read here for more information, http://www.equitech.com/articles/bpng.html

Noise is cancelled via common mode rejection. Like isolation transformers, you are current limited by the size of your transformer. I currently use our locally made product, the Plixir BAC from Sound Affairs - quite good results.

Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: WildRain on September 11, 2016, 10:16:51 PM
Great thread bro!!!

Based on learnings from the little experience, the dilemma of mains products are the trade-offs -

Reduced Noise/quieter background/more resolution, etc. on one hand v/s lesser dynamics/attack/less bass/lost emotions etc. on the other.

We all strive to walk the tight rope between the two
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: watchdog on September 12, 2016, 09:54:01 AM
Wildrain,

You bring up a good point. The tricky part is that sometimes we mistake high frequency noise as air and ambience, while loose bass is perceived to be big and impressive.

Some of the transformer based solutions I've heard blunt dynamics or sound too dark, dead or lifeless. The amount of loading the transformer is handling also plays a big part.

 
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: Wizardofoz on September 12, 2016, 01:27:29 PM
I have a friend with a recording studio and a lot of the analogue gear is powered via a large step down transformer (8KVA I think) to support the 110V power requirements. I wonder if this affects their perceived audio....He doesn't seem to have any issues with it nor has ever mentioned it. Much of the gear is controlled by MIDI and interfaces with Protools or occasionally Logic

In the digital domain I guess perhaps this has less impact but for the mastering of the tracks audio monitoring also doesn't seem to be an issue.

Maybe will test his ears one day with some power conditioning and see what he thinks...his ear is far more sensitive than mine.

The Analogue rig...

(http://walaneh.com/xpl/xpl-000094.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: Francis Huang on September 12, 2016, 04:20:07 PM
Yep,
More often than not, we get confused.
Noise become air and rolled off highs become low noise floor.

The new plixir is working very well for me. I have the pre cond version feeding the power distributor that feeds my source components. Noise floor drops without sacrificing dynamics and i did not detect roll off in the high freq domain.

Wildrain,

You bring up a good point. The tricky part is that sometimes we mistake high frequency noise as air and ambience, while loose bass is perceived to be big and impressive.

Some of the transformer based solutions I've heard blunt dynamics or sound too dark, dead or lifeless. The amount of loading the transformer is handling also plays a big part.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: Darknight on September 13, 2016, 04:36:58 AM
I'm using the PLiXiR elementra 2500 with very good results. It is a step up from the previous PLiXiR 3000 BAC which I had replaced in my setup.

However, for the PLiXiR Elite range, I would caution those who are keen to try it out in your setup before purchase. It may be more of a side step, gaining added bass but sacrificing refinement and 'air'.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on September 13, 2016, 01:05:12 PM
For power conditioning, those type of outlet that use low pass filter choke and high frequency by pass capacitors is only good for low current audio equipment like CDP, preamp, but will failed to deliver the peak current required by high current power amplifier and will cause lack of bass dynamic and generally slow down your system. generally I will not recommend this type of outlet for Hifi usage.

Best is for power amplifier to connect direct to AC outlet and tweak with different type of wall AC socket with different plating material and may be different power cable to RCCB distributor box. For CDP, turntable, preamp and low current equipment connect to balance transformer for best low noise.

However, for balance transformer use, unless your amp, preamp internal circuit has the AC Netural and Ground wire both ground to equipment chassic, then using balance transformer will help. But if your internal only have AC ground wire to equipment chassic and Netural wire is not ground to chassic, then the gound loop current is broken and does not effect your circuit, then using balance transformer will have less effect. See attach current loop diagram for balance transformer
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on September 16, 2016, 07:46:16 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/1Oto8M7h.jpg)

Top is how a normal AC supply to your audio amplifier look like , and because there may be a difference of voltage potential between Netural and AC ground, a loop current will create noise for your audio system.

Below is if you are using a balance transformer, the virtual ground create on the centre tap of transformer and amp chassic stop the loop current and thus the noise. Thus using balance transformer will reduce noise.

(http://i.imgur.com/Hd8K5Gph.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: annapurna on September 18, 2016, 05:03:10 PM
I had a Purepower 3000+ generator with a battery pack.  I used it for preamp, Network player, turntable and cd player.  So far the result has been very positive.  My incoming voltage has always been very high during the day, up to 239V and with regeneration to 230V.  With the Purepower, a layer of congestion has been removed and i can hear more detail all the way to the background.  Some brightness that is always present in the mix is no longer there.    Initially it seemed that the high frequency has been rolled off but with prolong listening, it is not.  It is just so quiet that Music sounded smoother and more relaxing to the ears.   I have yet to connect it to the power amp and will do that when I am free. 
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: tane0019 on September 28, 2016, 10:06:43 PM
Any bros experience the new range of conditioner from Shunyata - DENALI Series ??

Think the design seem to be PURE "Parallel Filter".

Told by the local agent that it will not affect dynamics & etc .... (ie connect source, pre and power amp - all in).
Don't know true or not.  Don't think they provide home trial ....   :-\ :-\ :-\


For Info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkRAjZ8sM5U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77ivPYVIvg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6f1kwyZbM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0k417ET7K8
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: watchdog on October 05, 2016, 12:15:17 PM
Any bros experience the new range of conditioner from Shunyata - DENALI Series ??

Think the design seem to be PURE "Parallel Filter".

Told by the local agent that it will not affect dynamics & etc .... (ie connect source, pre and power amp - all in).
Don't know true or not.  Don't think they provide home trial ....   :-\ :-\ :-\


For Info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkRAjZ8sM5U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H77ivPYVIvg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6f1kwyZbM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0k417ET7K8

A parallel filter design shouldn't affect dynamics. If you happen to try, do let us know what you think of it.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on January 24, 2017, 08:24:52 PM
Recently after listening to Hifi system with PS audio P10, the sound difference changes is great especially if connected to power amplifier which prove me wrong as usually it will limit dynamic range for power amplifier but not in this case. The sound with and without P10 is like changing a new amplifier and the improvement is overall from low bass, mid range and high frequency, seldom a device will able to improve in all area. I will definitely looking into P10 in the near future to see how it improves the sound technically.

Another forum has done some DIY modification using Furutech GTX-D NCF to P10 and getting good results from it just for our reference....

(http://i.imgur.com/TYtPSUjh.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/SA3bKalh.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/l5Yvk4Fh.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/OZ0Ebblh.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on January 24, 2017, 08:25:40 PM
The final modified P10 with Furutech NCF...


(http://i.imgur.com/HirMDJGh.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on April 24, 2017, 01:01:32 PM
Any forumer here using PS Audio P10 power regeneration? what is the best setting for house voltage here? Voltage setting? Sine or multiwave? phase control? low distortion or high regulation? which setting sound the best?
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 02, 2017, 11:09:01 PM
Nice thread but it would be nicer to also include some diy ideas instead
of having to spend mega dollars. Let me start if I may, go try out the good
old Jon Risch line filter. It works on amps real good cause I build one into
my amp. The difference in mine were the inductors, I hand it wound with thick
wire over laminated (I) plates instead of the recommended Corcom ones.
There is a little draw back though, for the filter to work really good, one has
to load the filter with a 100 watt incendescent bulb. With & without loading
the SQ is immediate no 2 ways about it.

Cheers

Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 03, 2017, 09:44:23 AM
welcome to forum, Sumotan... yes please do share your DIY line filter on our DIY forum, some users may be interest to try out. Actually all the high end HiFi audio in the past use to be  enthusiast audiophile that are not satisfy with the mass market brand audio product sound quality and they DIY in the garage and thus highend HiFi was born. This forum highly encourage DIY  so users will benefit from.

As for your line filter design, if the inductor is in series with the power supply line, then the inductor's resistance and self resonant frequency has to be carefully design, else it will limit the high current required by high power transistor amp. It will tend to soften the bass impact and slow down the music overall...
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 03, 2017, 11:08:58 PM
Good that you brought up the subject in transient response.
In general be it isolation transformers etc does affect amplifiers
most mainly be ause of the current draw need. What you mentioned
is correct. Re my custom wound inductors I actually had some advice
& exchanges of emails with Jon Risch back then before I proceeded.
I haven't been messing around with conditioner since. Perhaps later
as I find more satisfaction by building testing & tweaking my set up
for now. Only restarted this hobby after a lapse of 15 yrs or so due
to work commitments. Anyway anyone interested can google to dig
out the schematics. Should give it a try, cost peanuts to make so
nothing much to loose

Cheers
 
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 03, 2017, 11:46:56 PM
I have look at the Jon Risch line filter, it is actually a low pass filter. For very high current transistor amp will be a problem as some can draw high transient current of 15A. But for tube amp gear should be ok.

If forumer are interest, I can do a simulation of the circuit to see where the cut off frequency at....
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 04, 2017, 01:00:12 AM
Thank you would be good for diyers.
I've been using it in my 160 watts amp for years
& there's not any hold back in current delivery at
all hence after testing I build it into the amp

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: watchdog on May 06, 2017, 07:30:14 PM
Nice thread but it would be nicer to also include some diy ideas instead
of having to spend mega dollars. Let me start if I may, go try out the good
old Jon Risch line filter. It works on amps real good cause I build one into
my amp. The difference in mine were the inductors, I hand it wound with thick
wire over laminated (I) plates instead of the recommended Corcom ones.
There is a little draw back though, for the filter to work really good, one has
to load the filter with a 100 watt incendescent bulb. With & without loading
the SQ is immediate no 2 ways about it.

Cheers

Wow. It's been a while since I've seen the incandescent bulb trick.

In fact, it's quite common to see some type of filter circuit built in to audio components. Some of the stuff I've seen are (i) encapsulated IEC inlet filters, (ii) capacitors across L-N and sometimes additional capacitors across L and N to E, (iii) common mode chokes.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 07, 2017, 03:43:05 PM
Yes watchdog common in light current draw equipment
but not in amps. In any case loading is a must in circuitry
to ensure stabilty & optimum performace.

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 08, 2017, 10:40:35 PM
But passive filter only can filter out noise signal and cannot compensate for distortion of our incoming AC power supply, I have noticed our line voltage will change from 230V to 239V depend the time of the day and with typical distortion of 2%.

If only we can have an active regeneration of AC then will be rid of this distortion. Attached is a technical paper of regenerative AC prototype by NTU professor, DR Low, he used a DSP to control the regenerate AC sine wave with variable voltage and frequency. May be should visit him one of this day and see whether his prototype can be use for our audio application (attached IEEE paper)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: Wizardofoz on May 09, 2017, 12:06:17 PM
I have a friend who's company makes online UPS/Regulators and they have a new model coming out that I will be trailing - its not really for HIFI use but is active regeneration and can handle from 1-3KV and even larger models.

Only issue with this kind of gear is its either noisy (physically) or very expensive if silent - normally hifi types.

I will install the sample perhaps down in my kitchen area where the noise will not be an issue (fridge etc all there) and away from my HT/HIFI - but connect to my dedicated power runs.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 09, 2017, 03:15:20 PM
Very true JB on the other hand regeneration is adding another component
that mucks with AC which may or may not sound good even if the AC is
cleaner, quieter & stable. A simpler solution & less costly but not as quiet as regeneration
is something like the Felicia balance line AC which should be very good for low current
equipment & if you can get a transfomer guy to wind an input of 240v then voltage
variation at output will not be that much. Don't know but for me a passive solution
is more logical to me in context to AC outlet.

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 09, 2017, 10:45:50 PM
Ok, the Felicia circuit is having an isolated transformer , then follow by a balance transformer. ya this circuit will work as few users has report positive results using balance transformer. But active regeneration work very well in multi system that I listen to ...
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 10, 2017, 01:26:21 AM
Hi JB
originally it was again something the Jon Risch played with
a very cheap & simple solution by using normal tranformers
which can be bought off the shelf by connecting them back
to back & in between adding a cap. Somewhere along the line
it was improve by others how using dual primaries with centre tap
output also connected back to back which automatically turn the
primaries into balance out. For low current application, this is a
really cheap solution as compared with buying big expansive
balance transfomers. Yes AC regeneration may be better but
just look at what it cost & when you factor this in how much
better is it over what we can diy with the right stuff ?
Would be great if someday you could drop by my place, have
a listen to my set up but pls dont fall of the chair when you see
what I use for power cords, speaker cables etc.
I graduated from the Wadia & Jadis camp before I started diy.
Not saying that all that's out there isn't good but it's always
a point of dimishing returns once you pass a certain expenditure
level

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 10, 2017, 01:07:22 PM
Sumotan, ya I agree balance will work well with low current application by reducing noise from supply line. I don't think AC regeneration will cost that much extra if we can DIY it, u still have a large transformer and just need an extra inverter circuit that does not cost much. We can cut away all those fancy display or network connection, just down to basic inverter circuit design. If I come across this type of circuit, will make a prototype and try it out....

wait till my next holiday to Batam, will surely go and listen to u system. I always keep an open mind on sound system although a lot does not pass the traditional electronic theory, but it does work in actaul... look at my listening report at Dr Wong hifi setup, he is using CAT 5e cable for all his interconnect, and his system sound can ravel many hifi system costing $$$.

Branded HIFI normally have a guru behind that is passionate with the audio idea he had and perfect it in to a product that they can monetize it. Of course if u like a certain brand sound , u will follow and listen to that particular audio brand...the buying decision is more emotional than rational sometime...of course if you can DIY some that is a big plus, as long as u can get the sound u like.

I do prefer to buying audio equipment to support the product designer for their passionate effort put into the design so as to keep our hobby. Also as we upgrade equipment in this hobby, brand audio equipment has resale value that can fund next upgrade...pro and con. I will only DIY for small projects...

 

 
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 11, 2017, 01:21:05 AM
Yes JB thank you would be nice to meet you in person even if my system sucks at least I get
to meet an impartial audio friend. Btw me & Dr. Wong can be buddies, I too use Cat 5E.

Looking forward to meet you

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: lucasng on May 11, 2017, 03:03:29 PM
Hello guys,

I'm using an isolation transformer myself, having came from furman condtioners - sine power strips - plixir bac2000 - plixir elementa2500 - torus tot mini 3(For sources). I've to testify that power should not be regarded as something secondary. The power coming from the power conditioner changes sound so drastically that without a proper unit, the potential of one's equipments that follow may not be maximised. Like equipments, power conditioners has their very own sound signature. It's tough to describe whether isolation transformers are better than power regeneration devices having not compared them side by side. I'll be keen to give this a shot in due time.

The isolation transformer i'm using now is in fact, none of the above mentioned. I've customed made mine with the help of Robert from Art Audio. The total cost, SGD$3000. The conditioner design was built from the ground up, synthesizing inputs from various sources(including inspecting products ive owned previously, reading forums, receiving feedback from customers and audiophiles alike) and of course, countless listening sessions following after each tweak. Having done a shootout between the one i'm using with other products available in the market, I'm certain that the engine(isolation transformer) driving my system is superior in tonality, separation and spatial representation compared to products costing twice as much. The verdict was further supported by 7 out of 9 individuals after the most recent shootout.

I've heard from Robert that with the positive feedback from customers he's getting, he will be releasing the isolation transformer as a full fledged product with stocks being made available in a months time. A special call out to all bros out there, I would sincerely like you to give this product a shot. It will definitely transform your system, providing maximum detail retrieval in the most natural way. A friend of mine was at my place yesterday and he only had one word to describe the isolation transformer, "Effortless".

For further details on the isolation transformer/trial session, kindly contact me at
9 one one 5 2 four 8 7

Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 11, 2017, 09:23:53 PM
Hi Lucas, great that the isolation transformer work well in your system, may be u can show some photo of your isolation transformer setup so users that are interest in the product can preview it. What brand of transformer is used in the setup?
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 12, 2017, 10:44:52 AM
Attached is Jon Risch AC line filter circuit. This is a very well design low pass filter that will attenuate any conducted noise from 1MHz to 10 GHz effectively. you must choose a low series resistance inductor , minimum 0.03 Ohm and below. Please note for the capacitor voltage rating , try to choose 400 to 500V so you have margin of safety for the circuit.

http://links.dalrun.com/Electronics/Docs/Surge_Protection/files/AC%20Filter%20&%20Surge%20Suppresor.htm

(http://i.imgur.com/sg72nn1h.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 12, 2017, 10:46:04 AM
Jon Risch AC line filter frequency plot:

(http://i.imgur.com/1b5z5R1h.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 12, 2017, 03:15:27 PM
Bravo JB

Wow it's been moons that Id seen this schema.
Are you able to simulate it with a 100 watt loading ?
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 12, 2017, 04:05:02 PM
I re-simulated with a 10A current source at 240V. The filter response is similar with only slight shift of the -3dB cut off frequency. This is a cheap and good AC line filter...

(http://i.imgur.com/g861rkMh.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 12, 2017, 04:48:35 PM
Oldie but goodie JB
Strange when you load the filter
with a 100 watt light bulb you
hear immediate changes in SQ
as I recall more analog sounding
if I dare say. I believe this filter
will work well in SG given that
there's so much Ac garbage on
the line these days

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 12, 2017, 05:16:02 PM
It could be due to impedance mismatch, as when I simulated with higher filter output impedance to cause a impedance mismatch... the frequency response is no longer a smooth low pass filter response and have high overshoot at -3dB cut off frequency point. See frequency plot.... so you have to experiment and see whether the filter response is as simulated if you have instrument to measure it. Also you will notice that the filter phase change is very sharp at the cut off frequency point... this is not good for audio sound! the phase change should be gradually!

By loading with 100W light bulb, you effectively lower the filter impedance as light bulb resistance should be very low...

(http://i.imgur.com/LUwv4BCh.jpg)
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 12, 2017, 06:59:52 PM
Someone over your end should build one to test
Jon Risch did mentioned clearly that it works
better when load with a 100 power resistor or
light bulb. But off course who would want to waste
silly electricity onto a resisitor when you could
light up the room with a bulb. Lol
Thks  for the heads up as well as reminding me
that I should get a scope. Give mine away when
I moved over here

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: lucasng on May 12, 2017, 08:26:59 PM
Hi Jb,

Yes sure. Thanks for reminding me !

Here are some photos of the mentioned conditioner.

(https://preview.ibb.co/cTv8Qk/20170318_001840.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e0Whkk)
(https://preview.ibb.co/gASSJ5/20170318_001810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bu6yQk)

Note;
You'll be able to customise the type of duplex receptacles used as well as the internal cabling. By default we are using the Furutech alpha-OCC cable/Neotech OCC/Western Electric. The balanced toroidal was customed made for us. Digital treatment was done for a single column of duplex receptacles, by doing so, this eliminated graininess and harshness of the digital domain, making the overall sound more analog. Attention was also paid to ensuring the toroidal is well damped from external vibrations. This was accomplished both internally and externally(well machined chassis).

For the unit that will be used for comparisons, its fitted with dual furutech ncf receptacles, providing great sense of rhythm and dynamics. We welcome owners with power conditioners to have a go with this. It will definitely not disappoint.

Furutech ncf receptacles;
http://www.furutech.com/2015/11/18/12066/

Those keen for a non-obligation trial, kindly drop me a text at
9 one one 5 2 four 8 7.

For more information on photos of various comparisons, do drop me a whatsapp message.

Thanks for reading !
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 13, 2017, 12:00:04 AM
You mean someone has made the Risch filter for sale ?
Btw I don't get it why everyone is fixated on toriods,
only tried once on my project & immediately went
back to EI . Sq wise EI sounds better & off recent
yrs it's been proven the toriods are a no no due
to its poor rejection to noise. Haizzz looks like its
back to the pen is mightier then the sword thingy
Think the better solution is 1 Risch filter per
equipment. Caps that I used were Wima FKP

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 14, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
I think what Lucas shown below is a balance transformer design with some noise filtering circuit and not Risch filter.

But I think there are actual commerical type of similar "Risch" filter that are manufacturing by big cooperation that we can try it for our audio application, I believe you will get similar performance as Risch filter...as is similar circuit and design...
as shown below....some built into IEC connector which is very convient. Of course all this can only use for low current application like CDP, DAC, pre-amp type..


Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 14, 2017, 04:37:11 PM
actual AC line filter sell by R&S... as attached
Also the advantage of using common mode choke instead of two inductors  have better common mode noise rejection.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 14, 2017, 04:47:07 PM
The AC noise filter only cost US$3 that you can order from Aliexpress to try it out... see attached info
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 14, 2017, 11:33:55 PM
Tried those long ago JB. Didn't like what I heard.
Like all tweaks I believe type of caps use in the
filter affects the SQ as well. Re chokes be it single
or common mode varieties, I always stay away from
ferrite cores. In my experience it the away life &
sounds dark. For high current powder iron is best
due to ut low saturation point but they're so hard
to come by. I've build a new AB amp which is
powered by Hypex smps. Well compared to the
old amp which is the same but with linear supplies,
I think the days of big trans & large filter caps
is coming to an end.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 15, 2017, 10:29:42 AM
No harm trying just for $3, and can modified the capacitors or inductors to the sound you like... yes , "powered iron cores can typically handle more RF power without saturation than same size ferrite core. Ferrite if driven with large amount of RF power tends to retain its magnetism permanently and this ruin the core by changing its permeability permanently." Actually Aliexpress also sell the powered iron core for about US$2.5 per piece that we can buy and DIY the coil wounding to try out...


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/T200-2-high-frequency-of-carbonyl-iron-powder-core/32271031808.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.1.MloIu1&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_10151_10068_436_10136_10137_10157_10060_10138_10155_10062_10156_10154_10056_10055_10054_10059_100032_100033_100031_10099_10103_10102_10096_10147_10052_10053_10050_10107_10142_10051_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10110_10175_10111_10112_10113_10114_10181_10183_10182_10185_10078_10079_10073_10123,searchweb201603_9,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=3d2e2f04-1af4-4aee-88fc-8407532ae934&algo_expid=6ddb0ddc-0d3f-4b45-b5ef-34c02b5d14dc-
0&algo_pvid=6ddb0ddc-0d3f-4b45-b5ef-34c02b5d14dc

Another place that you can get powered iron core is amidon corp in USA that makes good quality products, also the cost of core is cheaper, may be have to pay higher postage fee.

http://www.amidoncorp.com/iron-powder-toroids/
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 15, 2017, 10:34:00 AM
For switching power supply design - Hypex smps, I feel you will add more noise to the audio system. If you can think of all transistors and resistors has KTB noise, if you add more of this device to your system, the total system ham & noise spec of amp will be worst off.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 15, 2017, 05:37:35 PM
Thks for the heads up. Noise from smps ???
Pls come, proof of the pudding is in listening.
Lol
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 15, 2017, 05:58:49 PM
will do one of this day...
For those who like to DIY the powered iron core inductor, attached is the formula to calculate the inductance and design info... make sure you pick the correct range of iron core...

(http://i.imgur.com/gx5TFNRh.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/phGpxa9h.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/zD0Mqi8h.jpg)

Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 15, 2017, 07:17:04 PM
Wow for all this dedication & your unselfishness to share,
I really do hope that readers would take heart & appreciate
what your doing. Bravo  :)

Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 16, 2017, 02:34:50 PM
Thanks for the compliment :) , hope the information will be useful for users that want to try it out...and hope more users will share if they do try the solution so we all gain...
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 17, 2017, 08:26:05 PM
The really sad thing these days are that diyers are really thin to the ground. The new
generations of audiophiles are more akin to buying expensive stuff & thinking that it's
bloody good due no small part to the press & marketing hype. Among this small minority
group of diyers, we also have the know it all gang who resist any comments simply because
they can or have build a couple of equipment which gives them the smugness or so they think.
So where does this leave guys like you & me JB ? How can we invite open minded beginners
& experience diyers to join us to exchange discuss etc. Go over to the other site & see what's
happening now

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: jb on May 17, 2017, 10:12:35 PM
I can empathy with current generation of audiophiles as not everyone has the technical know how or the time to DIY, so buying branded HIFI is ok as along as put in effort to optimize the sound, anyway music is just a hobby....

With internet, now you can view what other people experiment in other country like diyAudio web has a lot of interesting audio idea to DIY, so don't be constraint to Singapore web site only. I believe if you have try out some good DIY idea and the solution is good and really work well in the system, some users will want to try it and so I hope the information on this site will allow them to experiment it and share their finding.

Example, this power condition staff were not value few years back, but now I see more people paying great attention to clean up their power supply to get the best sound. So the low pass filter you suggest may work for a lot of system, I plan to order a few powered iron core to try out myself...built a few prototype to try out... But I feel if you can design a AC -regeneration power condition is still the way to go...if you have any idea of circuit, please do share it here... I will explore this concept and share if I come across circuit that may work and just try DIY it.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: sumotan on May 18, 2017, 09:47:06 PM
In whatever we do its always the foundation thats
the most important. Just that most ppl think that
the foundation is from the equipment. If we're just
looking at equipment then transformers comes first.
Re regeneration yes perhaps we can look into it.
For me Im looking for simple solutions without
adding too many stuff

Cheers
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: watchdog on June 11, 2017, 02:27:32 PM
I was having a recent discussion with some people on power conditioning vs power distributors. The power distributors I was discussing have absolute no form of power conditioning built in, so I will start a separate thread on this.
Title: Re: The power conditioning thread
Post by: WildRain on January 14, 2018, 11:10:09 AM
Wondering if anyone had a chance to compare sine SAT 3000 with Plixir Elementa BAC 1500, as they're roughly in the same price bracket. Plixir is obviously the favorite these days, but sine gives u an option of having boh 110v & 220v outlets in the same chassis